In this episode, Jamie sits down with Rajeev Bajaj, EVP of Education Solutions at MGT, to talk about how go-to-market strategy in the public sector needs to evolve from transactional sales to trusted partnerships. Rajeev shares lessons from his journey across classrooms, city government, and executive leadership, and explains why empathy, discovery, and co-design are essential for driving real change. They explore the limitations of traditional selling models, the missed opportunities when public leaders don’t assert their power as buyers, and the need for a shared space where public and private sectors can solve problems together. Whether you're building technology, shaping policy, or trying to modernize public systems, Rajeev’s perspective will challenge your assumptions and expand your playbook.
The public sector doesn’t need more point solutions. It needs partners who can actually help solve the right problems.
In this episode, Jamie sits down with Rajeev Bajaj, EVP of Education Solutions at MGT, to talk about what it really takes to modernize public sector go-to-market, from both sides of the table.
Rajeev brings a rare perspective, having led in the classroom, at city hall, and in the private sector. That experience fuels his mission: to replace hero selling with real partnerships, grounded in listening, trust, and discovery. For Rajeev, it’s not about closing the deal. It’s about designing solutions that public sector leaders can stand behind and scale.
They dive into:
If you're building, selling, or leading in the public sector, this conversation is a blueprint for making the shift from vendor to true partner.
About Rajeev
Rajeev Bajaj began his career in education over a decade ago as an elementary school teacher at PS 161 in Harlem. After his time in the classroom, he transitioned to key leadership roles at the New York City Department of Education, including Managing Director in the Office of Accountability. Most recently, Rajeev served as President of Sangari Global Education, an education services provider that delivers inquiry-based science educational materials to over 500,000 students worldwide. Prior to his work in education, Rajeev began his career in technology first at Microsoft and later as part of the core team that launched Jamcracker, a web services provider based in Silicon Valley.
Rajeev graduated from Northwestern University with a B.S. in industrial engineering/management sciences and has a master’s degree in education from Hunter College. He is a recipient of a Fulbright Teaching Fellowship through the Fulbright Memorial Fund-Japan and is a 2012 graduate of the Broad Foundation’s Fellowship for Education Leaders.
Guest Quote
“The ability to listen, to ask good questions, to be a good consultant in that way, and then to co-design what a solution or an architecture for a solution might look like—I think is the path to success.”
Time Stamps
00:00 Episode Start
02:40 Developing the Next Public Sector Leaders
05:22 Building Trust and Empathy in Business
09:58 Team-Based Approach vs. Hero Selling
19:18 Public-Private Sector Collaboration
30:31 First-Order Thinking in the Public Sector
43:15 Transitioning from Public to Private Sector
47:50 Bridging the Talent Gap: Public to Private Sector Transitions
53:52 Challenges in Moving from Buy Side to Sell Side
56:08 Rethinking the AE Role as Chief of Discovery
01:01:39 Customer Acquisition and Lifetime Value
01:05:59 AI and Education
01:14:32 The Roundup
Sponsor
Ever To Conquer is brought to you by RedLeif, a digital agency focused on accelerating the modernization and security of public sector data. Visit RedLeif.io to learn more.
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[00:00:00] Jamie Grant: Too many buyers in the public sector don't
[00:00:02] Rajeev Bajaj: understand their empowerment as the buyer. When the internet started to come into schools, we sort of designed for the floor, not the ceiling. We didn't envision think through enough what the possible and thoughtful use cases were in a way that the public sector leaders could actually ask more of industry.
[00:00:33] Jamie Grant: All right, y'all. Welcome back to another episode of the Ever to Conquer. My name's Jamie Grant, your host. Uh, super excited to have, uh, somebody that is, uh, a friend with us today, uh, that I've been fortunate to get to know over the last few years, uh, to really kind of dive into where we both see from our vantage points.
Just the, the partnership between the buyers, sellers, implementers, what it looks like to really accelerate progress in the public sector. Um, and I couldn't think of somebody, uh, more equipped to have that conversation than Rajeev Bajaj. Uh, Rajeev is the EVP of Education Solutions at MGT, formerly the CEO of Kamba as part of that group.
Um, Rajeev one, thank you. Uh, you're a busy man that's doing work all across the country to transform this stuff, so just taking the time. We really appreciate it.
[00:01:28] Rajeev Bajaj: Uh, Jamie, great to be here and, uh, excited about the conversation.
[00:01:31] Jamie Grant: Most of our early guests, quite frankly, and it's the same way, uh, this came together.
It starts at a dinner conversation where we just start jamming out, kind of venting a little bit, uh, aspiring dreaming, whiteboarding, like that kind of stuff. Um, I think you have so much insight into what go to market has historically looked like in the public sector where people just, quite frankly, I think too many innovators and too much talent looks at the public sector space and says like, I don't understand it, it's too complicated.
I've got value I can offer, but it's this foreign world that I can't get into. And I think you uniquely have a lot to offer there. What would you say to another CEO, like CEO to CCEO conversation if we took somebody that kind of fits in that like, man, I'd like to be able to help these school districts.
They're sitting ducks getting hammered left and right with ransomware attacks. They're dealing with legacy systems. They're kind of being told it's impossible to move forward. You've got a track record of doing exactly that. How would you encourage other people to come to the space and, and, and what would your thought be?
[00:02:40] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah,
[00:02:40] Jamie Grant: it's
[00:02:40] Rajeev Bajaj: a great question, Jimmy. I mean, I mean my, my background, you know, got the, got the education bug almost 30 years ago. Um, kind of left technology and ended up going into the classroom to be, to be a, a fourth grade teacher in New York City. Uh, and then ended up, down at the central office and, and in government and the Bloomberg administration.
Um, and you know, I think, I think the kind of common thread on this is how, how, how can you be a running partner to, to leaders on, um, solving their, their biggest problems. And so this sort of partnership posture to me is, you know, starts with, um, a, you know, a solution orientation on, on this front, you know, really, uh, being a good listener, uh, being able to be used.
You use the term kind of a, you know, a solution architect on this front. We understand. You know, public sector leaders have a bunch of pressure. Um, they've got, you know, they've got external stakeholders, they've got budget pressure, uh, they've got the politics, both small p and big p of their jobs. Uh, and so trying to understand what their biggest points of pain are, um, and bringing to them not just kind of a, a point, a a point and a point solution, but rather sort of a, a, a broader view of, of what they're trying to accomplish and, you know, how they're trying to serve their constituents ends up being kind of central to, to that.
And so I think, you know, to your question, you know, it strikes me that that success on that is really, um, I, I is really, you know, dig, digging in, not just on the specific. Um, you know, ransomware or whatever the specific problem is, but, but actually stepping back with them and saying, alright, how do, how do we, how do we solve this problem more systematically for you?
And so, um, you know, we, you know, in, in government you often hear, don't let a good crisis go to waste. Um, and so, you know, we've been, we've been able to, and I've been able to, I think, kind of roll up our sleeves with leaders one by saying, listen, we've, we've been in your, your chair, we've sat in this chair, um, and we want to create a systematic solution, um, that solves the specific crisis that you're dealing with, but that helps you modernize your infrastructure on that case.
Um, that, that helps you sort of think more strategically about what you're trying to solve, uh, over time. And that ultimately allows you as a public sector leader, to keep your pro promises to your constituents.
[00:05:17] Jamie Grant: So, man, uh. There's a few places I go with that. But one thing I love that you, that I think kind of tethers us into the conversation we both want to have today is I think, um, so many people look at this foreign ecosystem and they say, you have to know how it works to win business.
Or you have to know the certain people to know business us instead of understanding. You have to know how to build trust and empathize with the prospect on the other side, because I don't care where you're selling. The foundation of good sales is like concentrate amounts of empathy and discovery. And I wonder to what extent, uh, because you, you, you know, our first intro, I really was impressed that y'all actually do the design and listening work prior to like building and saying, give us a contract and then we'll do it.
It's like, time out. Can we level set on what your problems are and, and Sure. The fact that Rajeev used to operate on the inside gives him a lot of knowledge. It gives him an ability to kind of do the capital P, lowercase P politics work in, in Pokemon. But really if he just does a good job empathizing, which starts with listening and moves to connecting, you didn't necessarily have to have the experience on the inside to be effective or set another way.
Just because you had experience on the inside does not mean you know how to connect or empathize with people.
[00:06:46] Rajeev Bajaj: That's, I mean, absolutely. I think that's right. And you know, my, you know, I, I left government and started a, you know, a boutique management consultancy focused on ed policy. Um, and I think that being a good consultant, Jamie, that you're describing kind of the, the empathizing and the, the actually getting the root cause on what problem are we solving here, um, through asking good questions and listening really is, is the core of the work, um, versus sort of, you know, zooming to this is the answer or this product's gonna solve your problem, or whatever it might be.
Um, I think that that discovery is really the work, um, and, and allows you the ability to kind of co-design what that solution is because often the person you're talking to actually knows the answer in some form or another. And so that, that empathizing and listening helps to create that co-design. Um, and I think that really is the magic.
And, and to your point, I actually. Uh, and we talk about this a lot, you know, MGT we're, uh, you know, we are a state local and education focused advisory and technology firm, uh, with a lot of folks that have come out of the seats we were talking about similar to you. Um, but going from the buy side to the sell side is actually not a no-brainer, right?
I mean, it is, it is. You know, there are a lot of folks, um, that we come across that can't, can't cross that chasm, um, that, that, that aren't able to, to move from that. And that's not a, that, that's not a reflection on their, the character or anything, but what you're talking about, that sort of ability to empathize and, and listen, uh, and kind of, and, and be a solution architect in that way, um, I think is the, is the key, the key to making that transition.
[00:08:39] Jamie Grant: So I've got two questions and I'm gonna go first with. The, the faster one. And then I wanna go back to where you just went. Uh, 'cause I think it's really, really good stuff. Do you believe like if we, if we targeted, if we, if we looked at go to market at the top, and I think when we think sell side and buy side, one of the things that frustrates me in this vertical is it, it's an adversarial relationship too much, right?
Um, where the sell side has been like told, here's your number. Go get the thing, get the meeting, drive it forward. And it's, it's kind of an adversarial or conquering type dynamic rather than a true partnership. Where I don't think the buy side and the sell side have to truly be adversarial. I actually think we as citizens and taxpayers need the buy side and the sell side to be in partnership mindset, understand the pain points, the problems, whether or not there's a fit.
Such that the sell side goes, there's a difference between no and not yet. The buy side says, I understand what I actually need and now I can scope out kind of what I need. So I get clarity and when I go to market and say, this is what I need, I can pick the right vendor. Do you believe So that's the, that's the setup.
Do you believe that the current kind of structure, I, I think of it as like, uh, hero selling of an account executive that we see a lot of versus a team-based model. Do you think that the hero selling individual contributor model is even viable in the public sector? Or do you think that it demands a team-based approach and why?
[00:10:22] Rajeev Bajaj: I think the, the hero, um, the hero ball sort of, um, you know, um, relationship-based selling model, um. I, from my perspective, relationships matter, of course, there's no question. Um, but I think to, to actually get to what you're talking about, Jamie, in terms of a partner dynamic, um, you need a, I, I do think you need a team-based approach.
And I think what that blends is strong relationship, trust and empathy with some ability to bring content specific, uh, you know, support to bear in, in the education construct. Um, you've, you've gotta be able to understand what's, you know, top of the priority list for a K 12 superintendent, you know, and that's, that is in, in every conversation I have is student success and wellbeing.
How, how are we going to support the kids that show up every day in our public schools? To be able to meet their potential, um, and to, to provide the resources and support to educators and, and, and kids in a, in a holistic way. And so to me, the, the relationship stuff is necessary but not sufficient. To actually get to the partner model and to break through this sort of, oh, this is a vendor conversation.
Right. Um, and so a lot of the time I would say whether you call an account executive, whether it's a more public sector sort of management consulting, sort of partner level sales discussion, um, I see myself, frankly, as a client advocate, I am trying to be the honest broker. Ideally that I have some of those solutions that the client may need, but I, I often see myself as the client advocate, what, what is the problem we're trying to solve?
Um, what are, what is the solution set or the, you know, the, the sort of co-created solution we're aiming to towards? Um, and, and, and frankly, often, what is the kind of best of breed answer to that? Um, hopefully that has some MGT components to it or a set of things that I do. Um, but that may be broader. And so that also shows and I think builds trust where it's not all answers just end up in, in, in one lane.
Um, and so I think you can kind of act into that client advocate and trust building by doing that co-design and coming up with an answer. Um, that yeah, sometimes has, has part of your solution set in it, but actually sort of widens the aperture. Um, and you're, you, you build trust by doing that, frankly. And it's, it ends up being good for the, the client.
It, it ends up being good for you as a, as a person trying to sell a solution and your building the field. Because ultimately to your point, you, you want a educated and thoughtful buyer that's actually going to build the field here. In a way that moves public sector forward. Um, you know, I, I think about this.
You know, I, we've been doing a lot of work, uh, around building the capacity of, uh, and build, building out, um, the capacity of K 12 leaders on being systems leaders on ai. Um, and one of the topics that some of our leaders have talked to us about is, you know, we kind of a bit missed the moment with the internet.
When the internet started to come into schools. We sort of designed for the floor, not the ceiling. Um, and by that I mean it was a little bit, alright, yes, we need guardrails, we need to, you know, we need to design for safety and privacy and security. Um, but we didn't envision, uh, and, and think through enough what the possible and thoughtful use cases were in a way that the public sector leaders could actually ask more of.
Industry, you know, what are, and so when I think about. Where we are now with ai. I want public sector leaders I work with to be demanding a big tech, a set of solutions rather than, you know, a public sector rep from the big, the big tech companies saying, Hey, you know, all your answers on AI or Azure or our this, or whatever it might be.
You know, um, or open AI or what, you know, whatever, what, whatever the solution might be. Not picking on those guys, but, but sort of making a point.
[00:14:43] Jamie Grant: Yeah, I think I, I think to your point, that's a really good point is too many buyers in the public sector don't understand their empowerment as the buyer.
Exactly. Right. Like if you really strip it down, I had the ability as a CIO with $115 billion enterprise and all the things we were doing, like I actually had the leverage as long as I was willing to use it. Exactly. And say, guys clearly. Like clearly stated, here are the pain points. One of the things I would tell vendors a lot when they would come in is like, I need you to be greedy, but I need your greed pointed exactly at my need.
Absolutely. So if you are pointed acutely at my pain point, then we maybe don't have to have the adversarial relationship between your p and l on the sell side and my operational needs on the buy side. That Venn diagram became one circle and we could attack it together on behalf of the citizens of Florida and make a difference.
I need you to be really greedy at that. I just can't have you be greedy at something that's not my need. Absolutely. And it's my job to make sure I'm buying well, to go, Hey, you can be greedy, but I still have to be a steward of the taxpayer dollar.
[00:16:02] Rajeev Bajaj: A hundred percent. And, and I mean, I'm seeing this over and over with, you know, kind of EdTech use cases, living outside of the actual problems that leaders of school systems and educators are trying to solve.
They're all sort of dreaming up. And, and I think big tech's doing this too. They're dreaming up the use cases without asking Yeah, the buyer. What problem are you solving? What are, you know, are we trying to maximize, you know, teacher time and wellbeing? And that's what we're trying to solve so that, you know, teachers can unlock their magic, uh, and not be spending the night before, you know, uh, having to, having to dream up a lesson plan and AI can help on that.
Um, but what happens too much is that's off in another domain and we're not doing what we talked about on the front end of this, which is good, good listening. Understanding the problem. We're trying to solve and being you, you know, being good listeners to public sector leaders, educators in this case, uh, around, you know, what are their biggest point, you know, pain points and, and what are they trying to, to make progress on?
[00:17:09] Jamie Grant: Which I think is ironic when we talk about any tech, but obviously big tech that has scaled, right? You became big tech because you scaled. I don't think anybody could name. Uh, in order for them to become big tech, they had to find product market fit, right? In order to find product market fit, they had to have really good feedback loops.
But these are companies that are used to those feedback loops being like binary or input output or data driven that says when we do this, this happens. Facebook is the easy kind of layup example of in, of seven. Once you had seven friends on Facebook, they knew they had you as a user. They didn't have to actually go talk to people to do that.
They could let the machines tell them that. Yep. I think there's this fantastic irony where all of definitely the big tech, wherever that line starts, stops, whatever that is, they've all scaled internationally. They've all gone into foreign ecosystems. They've all listened to the feedback loops, and then somehow the very same companies that were absolutely elite on the customer experience and design and transforming the way software got developed and deployed, to your very point, which I think is, is, is not to be lost here.
They're getting no feedback from their customer here.
[00:18:29] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah.
[00:18:30] Jamie Grant: Yeah. None. And, and it was remarkable to me how many times you, you can imagine, there were plenty of times where I would talk to a, an ae, an account executive, a sales engineer, a BU lead, whatever it was, and they're like, sorry, we just, we can't do that.
And I said, well, I'm happy to send an email to your, you know, VP of the public sector, your CEO, you tell, you, tell me who it goes to. I would like your thing. I cannot have your thing if it does not comply with these things. Yeah. And so, no matter how many times you come and meet with me, and then lo and behold, when the conversation actually happened, executive to executive their thing, now did the thing I needed it to do.
Right. Or there was clarity and they said, Hey, we just can't. And I said, well, hey, sorry, but happy to, you know, continue conversations on other things where your greed aligns to my need.
[00:19:18] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah. No, I think this is such a, I mean, it's such a powerful point, and particularly in this moment where we're, I mean, there's so much I, I don't know when, when you zoom out there sort of.
Um, connection between the public and private sector and how that collaboration works speaks to frankly how we're renegotiating the social contract. Um, yeah, at least in the United States, it's, it's front and center on this front, and so this ability to transcend, um, and actually collaborate and create spaces where there is actual deep listening and feedback loops and frankly, co-design, co co solutioning on this front where, where the public sector is being asset based and the private sector's being asset based.
Around what are we trying to solve, I think is a real opportunity. Uh, I think that the challenge is that everybody, to your point, ends up a little bit with whatever their main incentive, the immediate point of pain on the public sector side, what the AE is being tasked with to, to generate X level of revenue ends up, you end up kind of defaulting to those, you know, sometimes not aligned first principles on both sides.
And so aspirationally people agree on this, but there's no middle space to actually do what we're talking about because, you know, the public sector's got their immediate priority they need, the private sector is talking about, you know, quarterly results and I've got, you know, 28 days left in the quarter to get to my number or whatever it might be, right?
So, um, that said, I do think there's an opportunity there and I think that that middle space feels very high potential to me. If, if we could kind of. You know, lower the temperature on both sides of that to, to actually get to the solution space. I actually think we could create some really unique solutions that, that meet the challenges.
Um, as I think about, you know, my clients on the public sector side and what ultimately in the case we're talking about, what big text China to accomplish actually in servicing better and actually getting to some of the end goals we're talking about where technology can really be an enabler.
[00:21:27] Jamie Grant: I think you just beautifully described these tensions that sometimes compliment and sometimes conflict.
Yeah. So I think everybody stipulates, um, you know, I've said for a long time, Anish Chopper and I used to joke about it when I was still in the legislature and he was the, the, the CTO that Yeah. You know, Anish and I don't agree on a lot politically, if he's a governor, I'm a governor, we gonna, if we're in the Senate of the house, our voting record's not gonna look very similar, but there's gonna be this Venn diagram that I think when you talk about the citizen.
The, the, the, the contract and the compact with our citizens. Um, and we've seen it this year play out, uh, where by and large everybody agrees with efficiency. There's always gonna be the political chatter of whether red's doing it, blue's doing it. Do I like it because of who's doing it? And Anish and I would talk a lot that like the digital transformation and the, and data should be kind of the white of, of the red, white and blue.
Like this should be an area that we all agree student outcomes should get better, patient outcomes should get better, our best teachers should be rewarded. Like these are things that the dinner room table across America says. I don't disagree with that objective. But when we start getting into the, how we start to get these tensions.
So I think you touched on a few things, Rajeev. One is we all agree government is gonna have a really hard time recruiting, developing, and then subsequently retaining the talent. To like build in a CapEx model. These solutions, I, I don't know any of us that think government dev is the path forward simultaneously outsourcing to people who don't understand the ecosystem is also gonna be a flaw.
Like, and so there's all of those things that are like these truths that kind of arrive at the only one solution being what you just laid out, solution fit. And being able to say like, Hey guys, we understand your problem. Here are some ways to solve it. I think that's the only fit. And I'm curious if you have any examples 'cause you touched on, uh, I, I think really well, hey look, we're gonna come and solve problems.
Hopefully there's some revenue for our company. We're in not a charity, and we gotta make payroll. Yeah, we, Jay, one of our, uh, co-founders that leads all our pipeline and partnerships is really big on this. In working with AEs to say, Hey, sometimes the fastest way to build trust with a prospect is to say, we don't do that, but we know the people who do it best and we'd love to solve that problem for you.
Yep. Happy to make an intro. There's nothing in it for us. Yep. Absolutely. Nothing builds prospect trust faster than we hear your problem. Absolutely. We make no money, but this is who does it better than anybody?
[00:24:23] Rajeev Bajaj: Be a resource. Be a resource. I mean, I think that's right. Um, I think under, um, on your question, Jamie, of sort of examples, um, you know, I think the, I think we are, um, we are seeing some, some interesting potential proof points of collaboration between public and private sector where we're standing up effectively.
Public infrastructure or public digital infrastructure. Um, that is a little bit, I think if you look at the, I don't know, I think about in the energy sector, the ESOP stuff where it's sort of like, um, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fix your windows in a public building and, um, and, and figure out the capital structure, um, for energy efficiency in a way that helps, uh, helps you light and heat the building, the a hundred year old building better, um, that gets the investor paid.
And that, you know, and that has, that builds some utility in, in some form. Uh, kind of the traditional public-private, uh, partnership stuff, whether you're leasing back the toll road or what, whatever the thing might be. I think there's some interesting, some sort of things, some analogs there that might be interesting as we think about.
You know, some of the white space you're talking about from your conversations with Anish and others, um, so you know, where we can co-design a solution that has effectively some open source components that then we can customize in different ways. Um, I I think there is some value there. Yeah. Especially as we think about policy goals of getting more kids into better schools or getting to those health outcomes.
Um, I almost feel like we are almost at the place where we are starting to see, uh, forgive the bad analogy, the building of a little bit of T-C-P-I-P for those types of public, for those, those types of public infrastructure opportunities. And, you know, a couple examples I think about, um. That were, that, you know, the, the choice, the school choice movement in the country has sort of taken its next phase.
You know, we have, we have public school districts, uh, we have the charter, the public charter school movement. We're now headed to a space where we have education savings accounts that are putting dollars in the hands of families. And as someone who's sort of grown up in public school and, and, and the public school world, I, I am very focused on this idea of, yes, I want families to have choice, but I also want them to have quality.
Right. Um, both those things need to be true. And so how do we set up the right sets of that social contract, the guardrails in a way that allow for choice and quality, um, in, in a way that makes sense. And I think, um, I think the sort of connection of some of the transactional platforms that exist for, um, giving families those dollars and having more flexibility in something in a 5 29 along with them, the supply side of this, what are, what are the actual things that take some of the innovation, frankly, of the COVID era around a micro school or homeschool in a box or other things sort of blend with not necessarily the regulatory regimes of the past.
But that take the best of what we cared about there, which is, you know, we need, we wanna make sure that, um, that learning opportunities are actually leading to outcomes for kids and, and their wellbeing. I mean, we look at the data, the, the student achievement data out of COVID and our kids are not all right.
And so there is some, some set of, uh, you know, small a and big a accountability that needs to be a part of the tax, the taxpayer dollars that are going to a public good like education. So I think, I think we are gonna see, and I am hopeful we're gonna see more innovation on that front, where in some ways I would love to see open source infrastructure then that states could take advantage of, to build out what that looks like in Iowa, what that looks like in Indiana, how that plays out in California, uh, in a way that maximizes that, that student outcome goal with that innovation and flexibility.
[00:28:43] Jamie Grant: Man, I love where you're going. Gosh, there's so much good stuff there, Rajeev. Um, one, I, I think I wanna start here for for a second. You used the term first principles a few minutes ago. Um, and we spend a lot of time talking as a team. Uh, not a lot of time, but a lot of times this comes up. Um, and I, and I really had to, it struck me when I took the CIO job that your traditional government employee, because there's not a p and l because there's not earnings per share, because there's not the need to make payroll.
All of those things that kind of force it in the commercial sector. I was blown away at how much first principle was synonymous with only principle. Like there was no question of second, third, fourth order principle. It was really point solution on problem. Pun intended in that I have problem give me point solution, no question of what is the second order of Prince, second, third, fourth order effect.
Do you agree that the public sector is uniquely historically kind of first order means only order and we've kind of historically made decisions on first order being only order and not maybe thinking through second, third, fourth order effects as a norm. There are plenty of examples where it happens with great leadership, but the ecosystem and the incentive structure of the public sector seemingly incentive incentivizes first or first order principle being the only consideration, and then move on to the next problem with first order principle.
Instead of mapping and, and, and actually thinking. Second, third, fourth order.
[00:30:29] Rajeev Bajaj: I think it's a fair characterization. I do think, um, you know, we were talking about hero, hero ball on the AE side. I think where I grew up in an era where, um, great leadership, uh, and I think that, you know, that's not just an era that is a, a to me, an essential truth.
Great leadership makes a difference here. Uh, and I had, uh, you know, I've had the, the great, you know, uh, I'm deeply grateful and, you know, had the privilege of working for great public sector leaders. Mm-hmm. And so I think, um, I think that leadership question really drives exactly what you're talking about, which allows for a sort of broader theory of action, um, and alignment to outcome versus sort of the point solution thinking.
Yeah. Um, in, in that way. Um, and I think in some ways we are, again, not to zoom out too far, but I feel like we're an interest in an interesting moment where. We have, um, I think there, I grew up in an era where the technocratic view was a very, um, even on, you know, on policy, the technocratic view was, you know, if you, if we move from a compliance-based bureaucracy to a performance-based bureaucracy, um, we are gonna solve all the problems.
And I think we were a little bit naive, um, that, that only that was gonna do, you know, was gonna, was gonna meet the mark. And so I think we've in some ways moved beyond that just technocratic view. And in the end I think it's a balance of the technocratic solution. With an alignment to first principles, um, and deep engagement with the citizens, the students, the leaders, um, the community we are aiming to serve.
And that's the, I dunno, that's the uniquely American experiment. And I also think is sort of what we have to get right as we think about blending public and private sector thinking about this in a way that's not, you know, uh, if I build it, they will come. Um, you know, versus, you know, uh, also, you know, there's some Steve Jobs, you know, view around, you know, the customer doesn't really know what they want.
Um, how do we blend those? How do we blend those things in a way that actually meets, you know, citizen student need, um, at scale?
[00:32:57] Jamie Grant: We used to talk about it, uh, when, uh, in the electoral. Construct, uh, recruiting candidates or Yeah, supporting candidates. We would talk about floors and ceilings. Yeah. So if we were looking at a race and saying, Hey, who do we think is gonna win this race?
We really want to define candidates with high floors and no ceilings. Right. High floors and high ceilings. Because a low floor is a challenge, right? Yeah. And a low ceiling is a challenge. And so you would find some situations where somebody had a high floor and a low ceiling. You could spend a million dollars on their campaign and they were not gonna exceed that ceiling because it was there.
And then in some situations, even with a really low floor, you could invest that million dollars, but because it was no ceiling, you could get there. I, I like where you went on the, the, I I think that, gosh, we could jam out on the choice thing for a long time, uh, both policy and operation. Um, but I, I, I think the predicate question there is.
Because the ecosystem isn't really understood and because too much of the sell side takes the me point solution closed ecosystem approach.
[00:34:05] Rajeev Bajaj: Yep.
[00:34:05] Jamie Grant: There's no resource sharing. There's no expansion beyond kind of the closed architecture, whether that means technically or just operationally such that there is no scaling of benefit or reduction in the cost of services provided the cost of goods sold we're it, it's kind of, I would like, I, I would, I would liken it to what I call the traditional SI boondoggle, where in some situations the same SI is going to every state, building the same exact custom application with 80% exact code, but charging that next jurisdiction, a hundred percent of work they already did.
And then we're sitting back looking going, why do we spend. More per student and have some of the outcomes. It's not often, ever, rarely, ever a resource problem. It's an allocation and alignment problem. And I love where you're going on the open source piece because that is the roadmap Yep. To how we align resources to outcomes, regardless of whether it's a traditional public school or a, a charter or homeschooling a box or any of those things.
We start to scale in ways that I don't know we ever have.
[00:35:17] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah. Well, and I, I mean, I think absolutely. And I, I mean, I think the, I I think I understand the private sectors incentive to benefit from the fragmentation for sure that you're talking about. Um, because of all these you can add a whole zero. You can add a zero.
You can add a zero. Right. Exactly. I mean, but go back to the public sector side of that, which to me then is public sector leadership, um, thinking about. What those opportunities are in a, in a, in a way that actually allows for, um, for learning from others, you know, benefits of scale. Thinking about some of this, I mean, we, we look, you know, we've looked at, there's been initiatives, you know, everything from outcomes based contracting to co-sourcing with different states and other things, um, that think about these sort of things.
But to your point, it, you know about first, second, third order stuff because there's such pressure around. You know, problem, solution. It's often hard to sort of, you know, zoom out with a wider aperture around some of this, even where you have leadership and that alignment because, you know, there's a resource constraint, there's a political calendar, there's, you know, constituents that need to be served right now around those, those different things.
So I think, um, the, the alignment broadly of incentives around this, I think, uh, you know, I think is hard. And so that's where, that's why I do think we've gotta transcend just the hero leadership moments. To try to build this sort of broader ecosystem approach that, that I think is our best, um, our best chance at this.
And, and that, that requires a mix of catching the lightning in the bottle, in the leadership moment, um, in a way that does that. And then showing what's possible here, right? Which is how do we take, how do we, how do we do this in a few places with some proof points where, where this comes together, uh, and then, you know, work to scale those opportunities.
Um, and I think, you know, I think there's an opportunity, uh, like I, I was giving you the, the K 12 example around I would love, I would love K 12 leaders to really. Uh, lead on what they're demanding from the private sector on, on these various fronts, which is, it's, yes, it's being a good consumer, but it's actually saying, here are the use cases.
Here's what I need from you. Don't, don't just go off and spend a billion dollars on what you think the LLM should be. Let's, let's actually engage in a way where this is mutually beneficial. Uh, and so I think there are many, many examples on that front, um, uh, of where we could do that. And so to me, I, I think it's incumbent upon us, you know, on whatever side you're on to try to find where that middle, middle space is to, to try to solve some of these problems.
And I think we can do it.
[00:38:18] Jamie Grant: I think we can. And I think you, you, you, um, you, you teed up kind of something we're gonna tease at the end on, on just some community building that doesn't make us either of us any money. Uh, but, but it is kind of on, on the roadmap to that, you know, it just hit me, Rajeev as you were talking, that the hero leader on the technology side, on the, on, excuse me, on the buyer side.
[00:38:38] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah,
[00:38:39] Jamie Grant: the hero ball on that side, I see a lot of times beat their chest and go, I am the state of, or I'm the agency of and I that, and in reality, their adoption is really like small mid-market size to the companies. Sure. Yeah. Um, in reality, maybe at an extremely high level, uh, if we went really high here, I don't think you can find many technology companies that operate in the commercial and the public sector space who generate more than 10% of their total revenue from the public sector.
Sure. So now if we come back to like that, I, I think kind of maybe let, let's say a hero buyer that perhaps lacks some self-awareness and economics, uh, to back their position that kind of beats their chest and says, I am, you shall, I think that's one of the problems. On the other side, you find that humble, mission-driven leader of maybe a smaller organization or similarly situated that kind of understands those things and feels like they're on an island and they go, well, gosh, if I go to this company that does, you know, 3% of their total revenue in the public sector, and I say, I need this thing, I don't really know if I can make a difference.
And they're probably right. But sitting in between that is that community of excellence you're describing.
[00:40:00] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah.
[00:40:00] Jamie Grant: Where a hundred buyers orchestrated, clearly communicating that does get the attention of the sell side. That is way more than just noise and become signal. And that does, I think, start to invite the sell side to the table to go, whoa, I got a hundred school districts here wanting to have a conversation about what the LLM looks like in K 12 in America over the next decade.
Yeah. That that has them running to the table. Where those other two situations, I think, kind of go nowhere in a way that I think is one of the most foundational elements to drive the progress you're describing. I don't know if you agree with that or not, but, but I, it just struck me that the, the extreme on both sides of the buyer's behavior that either is self-aware and knows they can't really be a hero or doesn't understand, they can't be a hero, but pretends like a hero is, is holding us way back.
[00:40:56] Rajeev Bajaj: I, I, I think you're spot on. I think, you know, uh, she or he hero heroin leader on the public sector side. Kind of default to that because, um, you know, the public sector leader is not making what the private sector leader is making. They wanna, they, they obviously care about the mission, et cetera. But that's one of the inputs in terms of, you know, being known in the field, et cetera, wanting to, wanting to, you know, wanting to lead on that front and have, make a difference.
Um, you know, there's been, there's been good, you know, some people do a tour in public and then go back to private. There's more malleability on the talent side on this front. Um, I think, I think we've, uh, you know, done a reasonable job over the last 20 years around getting folks, you know, someone like, you know, you, uh, or others that have, you know, that have spent time in the public sector and the private sector.
And you sort of, you can, you can navigate both. And I think, um, I think we need to recognize. That that, um, acknowledgement on the public sector side is something, something that is an incentive, um, in a different way. Um, and I think one tool in the toolkit. So I think this middle space you're talking about can actually be part of a bigger tent.
Around a set of public sector leaders and private sector leaders working to solve those problems that they can all talk about, right? To both their, to both their core constituents to sort of say, Hey, we're leading on this front. Um, this is something that's great. Here's a proof point on that front. It's having outcomes.
It, you know, it matches that need. So I think what we're talking about in terms of that community, um, is, is ripe to be developed. And I think I would love to see that space because I think we can give everybody what they want, if that makes sense. You know, both as it relates on the public sector side and the private sector side.
Um, we can meet that need because we, you know, we all, we all wanna make a difference. We all wanna do a good job. Um, you know, there are some very basic human truths here that we can maximize in service of all the goals and ultimately what we're trying to accomplish.
[00:43:00] Jamie Grant: Rajeev, you could not have set up something that I wanted to go back to at the top and was trying to figure out how to keep it in the conversation.
'cause I think it's important and I couldn't have paid you to, to come back to it better with what you just said. So you mentioned earlier, uh, that you've had a lot of experience, um, both as the CEO of Kamba and, and now at, uh, at MGT leading the ED practice with people that came from the inside, maybe having a challenge on the outside, um, in, in flipping roles, and I couldn't agree more.
One of the things that, that I really got annoyed with as a buyer, um, was the way that the term field CIO kind of got operationalized or bastardized. And what I mean by that is I would have somebody that was wearing the shirt of the company that had hired him as a field CIO. They would come in and they would all almost say the exact same thing.
Hey, I'm not on a quota. I don't have a commission. I'm just an advisor. And in my head I'm thinking, cupcake, you're on a p and l whether you know it or not. So if you think that, I, I hope you don't believe what you just said, number one, for your family's sake and your, your, your revenue, uh, for the family, your income, but two, if you think I'm gonna buy, 'cause you bought, right?
Like if, if that person that came from the inside, if, if their, if all they have is I have some relationships and I bought your product so I can be a spokesperson. My theory is that, and I, and I've talked to some companies, maximum lifetime profit on that is two, three years. Like at the end of year two or three, the p and l catches up and it's like, Hey, if you were only here for the relationships.
And for I bought, so you should buy. It's not gonna work. On the flip side, I think that those people from the inside, so, so the question is like, do you know people or do you know design process? Do you know product or do you know how to do discovery? Yes. Do you know, uh, who people are on an org chart or do you know how to connect with anybody on any org chart in such a way?
So, so I don't wanna pick on that crowd because I think where I, I would really pick is the companies, unlike the companies who have leaders unlike you that go, they were on the inside. Therefore, they don't know how to situate 'em for success and go, Hey, your experience on the inside really relevant. Now I need to kind of coach you, teach you on this foreign ecosystem over here called the private sector.
'cause honestly, Rajeev, like when people ask me, how did you figure that out in that room on the fly and whatnot, it's like, they're like, man, being the CIO of Florida must have really equipped you. And it's like, honestly, all that being the CIO of Florida did was show me all the dumpster fires and the problems that needed to be solved.
But the approach of transforming the partnership and go to market is a hundred percent my private sector background. And what I spent a long time doing before I ever did three very hellacious years in government. And I'm, so I say that to say, to ask if you were, I wanna do this two ways, two different questions.
So first question, if you're talking to somebody that's listening to this, who's on the inside, they have no private sector experience. I'll tell you, there is nothing that I've seen yet to equip and support the offboarding of somebody from the public sector to the private sector. They don't know what an RSU is, they don't know how to negotiate, they don't know what's fair.
They don't know how to identify what a private sector org situated for success looks like. If you were to give them your kind of quick two, three minute go on a rant here. 'cause I do think so many great public sector employees that are gonna make this transition are basically asked to do it blindly with no experience and no support.
And so they're just kind of blindfolded throwing darts at a board going, what company am I gonna land at? Rather than what are the things I should be looking at in that organization to feel comfortable that that organization actually gets it? And is going to equip me for success when I make the move to the private sector.
Yeah, that's such a
[00:47:49] Rajeev Bajaj: great question. I mean, I, I think a, a couple things. One is I think folks generally that are making this move, uh, over index on their subject matter expertise. Um, like you're saying, click on that, click on that. Um, and I think it's sort of like I did this thing in government for 20 years, for 10 years, for whatever number of years.
Um, and that's my calling card. And I think, again, necessary but not sufficient, um, in that transition, the subject matter expertise, obviously critical. Can I interrupt
[00:48:25] Jamie Grant: you for a second? Would you agree? Yeah. You said, you said, uh, necessary not sufficient total agreement. I would even go so far as to say disqualifying if it's the only thing.
If it's the
[00:48:34] Rajeev Bajaj: o Right. Well, that's what I was gonna say is a, and so then I think, you know, I go back, I built a consulting business, so I, I have a little bit of a lens there around. Huh? The, the ability to go back to trust building, to empathic listening to discovery. Um, and I think what I have seen for folks that are successful, whether it's making that transition well or being a good ae, is uh, I often call this just intellectual curiosity.
Actually a desire to wanna understand the problem that the person you're talking to is trying to solve. Um, versus this point, this, this problem solution mindset that you just described, which is like, you know, all roads lead to a Microsoft Office license, right? And I, I say this, I'm, I'm picking on my, yeah, my old employer.
I used to work, you know, I worked at Microsoft out of undergrad, but sort of all roads leading to that answer is not the way to make that transition. And so the ability to, uh, listen, to ask good questions, to be a good consultant in that way, and then to co-design what a solution or an architecture for a solution might look like, I think is the path to success.
We. I, I do a lot of what I'd call sort of apprenticeship model on client engagement on discovery. I invite anybody in my organization that wants to join a first call with a superintendent or a deputy superintendent join me for the call. Yeah. Just, you know, and again, I'm not saying I'm, I'm magical or, you know, or, um, expert in anything, but just to learn those sorts of reps about how to have a conversation, um, and do discovery, I think are really the sets of reps I want to create in my organization.
Um, for folks that, that will be good consultants, that will be good sellers, that will be good deliverers of ultimately the solutions we're, we're trying to enable in the public sector.
[00:50:29] Jamie Grant: Do you feel like you're being selfish when you do that? 'cause I do, and here's why. When I do the apprenticeship model, it gives my team reps that is true.
Yep. It also makes me so much better, and I think people miss this all the time because I will never be as good at a curious and, and, um, calm discovery process as my co-founder Jay ever. I could work on it forever and I will never be as calm and curious. Yep. And so at the same time, Jay came to us and when we were recruiting him, I, I said, you know, hey, he was a COVID riff at a commercial SaaS company, and he called me kind of in a mentor construct to say, Hey, I'm, I'm looking for what's next.
And he kind of described what's next. I'm like, why don't you just come do that with us? And he goes, I don't know anything about the public sector. And I said, good. 95% of people in it don't either. You'll be just fine. But when I have him on discovery calls or Page on some of the process and product stuff, they are constantly poking holes, finding gaps that give me the opportunity to go, like, guys, I busted that assignment.
My bad. Yeah. And so I think you're spot on that it gives them reps, but I don't understand why. And it sharpens yourself. Yes, absolutely. I don't understand why
[00:51:48] Rajeev Bajaj: more leaders don't do it. Amen. I think, I mean, I completely, and, and by the way, I think, um, you know, I am a, you know, at my core, a policy geek that wants to keep solving problems.
Mm-hmm. And so, to your point, there's a selfishness around being able to be in those conversations and to be valuable and to keep, to, to keep current on what people care about. And having that customer feedback loop, uh, is, you know, deep dopamine hit. Right. So, um, you know, totally with you,
[00:52:18] Jamie Grant: I would even go back to kind of the, the transitioning out.
Like nobody gives a rip that I was the state CIO of Florida. Nobody cares what we did. Now there might be some certain moments where it establishes some credibility in an empathic session. Sure to look at somebody else in the chair and go, I've been through three years of hell in the worst operational environment I've ever seen.
If you like, there's, there's some connection to that.
[00:52:51] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah.
[00:52:51] Jamie Grant: But if you think or anybody thinks, I can walk in a room and go, oh, I was the CIO O of Florida. We had the second largest starlink deployment fastest ever ServiceNow standup in ServiceNow history. We did this, this, this, and this whole estate, cyber, all these things.
I'm like literally just reading my highlight film to somebody who's playing the game themselves. And all I'm actually doing is reducing trust and credibility. If I'm walking in a room saying, let me show you my highlight film, rather than just saying, Hey, look, we can level set. We've both been in the locker room.
We've both played the game. I get it. Um, now let's have an actual conversation and connect
[00:53:25] Rajeev Bajaj: you. And I think to your point, it accelerates the trust building. But still then, you know, you, you can get faster to a, a real conversation. That you don't have to do the bridging of the translation and all that. Yes.
And I think you're right. That's actually, yes, that's exactly what it does. Um, you can go war speed to the cliff, you can go warp speed to the cliff, but
[00:53:47] Jamie Grant: it is still a cliff if you cannot do the design and discovery and connection work at that point. Absolutely.
[00:53:52] Rajeev Bajaj: And, and you know, I mean this is to the point about moving from the, you know, the, um, buy side to the sell side.
Sometimes the what, this is why it fails because the, uh, the highlight reel is almost a turnoff. Mm-hmm. Um, for folks that are in that chair, I, I don't want to hear what, you know, that guy or gal did you know, when they were superintendent or whatever, like, you know, I got my own problems and yes, it's helpful and there's some em empathy there, but don't overplay the hand on that I with you.
[00:54:18] Jamie Grant: That and a hundred percent. And like I joke with people sometimes they're like, Hey, you know, uh, can you help me with this agency in Florida, whatnot? And, and I always laugh. I'm like, guys, you need to understand, I have a lot of friends in Florida, uh, a lot. You don't make the kind of progress we made that fast without making some enemies.
Question one. Should I be in the room or not? Right? Like, there are some agency CIOs who are not gonna send me a Christmas card because we had to call a spade a spade. And if we're just gonna jump to like, I kind of laugh in that field CIO role. Like it, it's like, here's the shiny little object and it's like nobody cares, guys.
Like, like if we can do the credibility thing, I, I wanna, I wanna give the flip side real quick and then we'll, we'll land with, with kind of the, the, the AI convening and frontier state stuff. 'cause I think it'd be good to touch on real quick and, and then have some fun on what we call the roundup. Um, give people a chance to know Rajeev.
Um, I want to go full circle and kind of land our conversation with the, we just talked about like the buy side, transitioning to the sell side, but going back to the top of like the ae hero ball selling. I think a lot of that structural. I've been blown away, you know, 500, a thousand different AE pitches, planning sessions across a number of companies and across the country.
Um, I like to say we finally, Jay and I both got and Paige, uh, but Jay and I had come out just a terrible experience that was embarrassing mortifying that we were even involved. And we finally were like, how do we get these people to understand? Like meeting one is not demo and deck. And we finally started saying that the only time demo or deck should come before discovery is in the dictionary stop.
Um, how, what would you coach the AE or the CEO? Let's start there. Do if team-based is the model. If everything you've laid out is how to do go to market, if we do believe that this should be a symbiotic and partner relationship that is a compact on behalf of the taxpayer. We've talked about kind of the, the buy side person coming over and being able to get to discovery faster, which is a part of this.
Like, let's accelerate the solution side.
[00:56:30] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah.
[00:56:31] Jamie Grant: But that can accelerate if I don't also have the industry side pulling its head out of its backside sometimes and saying, wait a minute, I can't hero sell, ae crack the whip on, get meetings. What would be your kinda elevator pitch to those folks?
[00:56:47] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah. Uh, great, great question.
I feel like for the, for the AE and the team-based selling side of this, to me the, the punchline is, um, I do, I do think having sort of a, a point, um, person on the AE side that actually thinks them of themselves as chief of discovery and sort of overall, overall sort of, um. Builder of context in a, you know, take, take the state of Florida, take a big school district, whatever it might be, that is literally.
Tasked with that diag, we call it a diagnostic. And cus consulting world is actually thinking through the overall theory of the case on this front in a way that those of us that are busy or are thinking about one problem or whatever it might be, actually have that, that full view. Uh, and they own that discovery and diagnostic.
And again, bring the empathy, the trust, and the curiosity to that exercise. I actually think that can be really, really valuable. Um, and so that's what we're testing. You know, we're doing a little bit of a, you know, multiple pathways strategy. You know, we have, we have, um, you know, sort of partner level management, consulting, sales.
We have an AE structure. Um, we have, you know, we have a business development manager and a, and a and a transactional structure. We, we have RFP and RFX, we're doing it all. Um, and I think for me, the ae part of this as sort of. Chief holder of the diagnostic, which brings, read that strategic plan, bring in, bring in the board minutes, think about all those things, uh, and then be a really thoughtful, uh, consultant on that diagnostic that or, or that discovery process.
I think there's value in that. I actually think particularly then, if you can bridge that to being the sort of point person, as the solution architect as well then, which is to me there is value in that coherence, in that sense making. I actually think there's a ton of value there. And so, uh, that would be my punchline for AE based view on this, is be that solution architect.
Think about it that way. Bring in detailed expertise when you need the person that's, you know, two levels deep on subject matter expertise in the organization, on, on privacy or security or whatever that is, or on academics or instruction or, or facilities or whatever the case might be. Be the chief orchestrator, but live in that solutions oriented orienta, you know, oriented posture.
Um, as that, as that convener and, and, and choreographer of all of that
[00:59:31] Jamie Grant: Chief of Discovery is. So, uh, that is a, that's a banger. Um, you know, I, I say that if, if we, if I ran public sector for, uh, uh, sales in general, but like, uh, we, we've actually kind of developed some criteria to say meeting number one. As the ae you're allowed to tell 'em who you are, what we do in one sentence or less.
And you're allowed to tell 'em what we're hoping to accomplish. You are not allowed to tell 'em about how we do anything. And meeting number one is exclusively to identify pain points and figure out meeting number two is exclusively benefit, no price allowed. And then number three, once we've had some solution discovering, if we wanna start talking about where benefit and price comes together.
Yeah, but we find because there's no discovery meeting one, wait. It's, we, we say the, the self-fulfilling prophecy of one meeting. The AE works so hard to get the meeting and then they finally get it. And it's that scene from Tommy Boy where he just shakes the muffin to death. And it's like, you know, I love it and I pet it.
Uh, and, and so all about ball bearings. Yeah. It's all a Fletch and Tommy Boy reference on the Ever to Conquer is, uh, boy. So, um, all right. I, I love where you went with Chief of Discovery. I, I think you're spot on. I would tell you it's not just a think there's value. I think you're gonna see real pipelines and growth happen where the partnership happens, and it can't happen without the ingredients you've laid out today.
[01:00:55] Rajeev Bajaj: And we as organizational leaders need to build the muscle of folks that are coming into these roles to be able to do that discovery. So, you know, I have the benefit of running an advisory business that, you know, aims to build the best consultants doing the thing we're doing. And so I want my AEs in that, in that onboarding.
I want them literally learning those, those things. And then the apprenticeship model is a part of it. Again, it's sort of a mix of things in this cocktail to build this cheap, you know, this sort of cheap discovery function
[01:01:27] Jamie Grant: a hundred percent. And something that I know our good friend, Trey Reso would appreciate on this front.
Uh, what, what just hit me as you were talking is, uh, we spend a lot of time, I I say over and over and over. Customer acquisition cost in the public sector will never catch up to commercial. It's impossible for a lot of reasons. We could do a whole episode on that. However, lifetime value of a customer. In the commercial sector, we'll never catch up to the public sector in absolute.
And so to your point, when we don't do the discovery, when we do the point solution, when we focus on the p and l and the transaction, we are taking away our greatest asset that would actually align because whether it's a private equity firm, a venture-backed company, or just a CEO looking at it, if I'm doing business with government, I should have realistic expectations of customer acquisition costs.
And I have to throw out the contrast to the commercial market other than to baseline how I'm doing in the public sector. But I should be leaning all in to the greatest strength of the financials in the public sector. That lifetime value is unmatched compared to the commercial markets.
[01:02:32] Rajeev Bajaj: I mean, that's so well said, Jimmy.
I mean, I, I've never articulated it that way and I think. You know, when you think about the gives and gets, that may mean that in building those relationships, your gives to start significantly outweigh your, gets right? This diagnostic, this, this solution architecture. Like we should just do that for the good of the order because it's good for the client and to this point, like it may be us and maybe somebody else.
Let's help you understand what problem you're solving. Let's help you design the best solution for that. And then I think the commercial benefits come with that over time. Like that, that's not, I mean, I have found that over and over again that if you do the right thing by your potential client, you, you're a resource for them.
Um, not only are you building trust, um, you know, that is, that is to me the pathway to then commercial benefit as well. So that, I mean that at least in my view has served, served me and us well in how we think about, you know, doing this work.
[01:03:32] Jamie Grant: So to tee you up to talk about AI convening and, and for us to talk about Frontier State for a minute or two, and then jumping into the roundup, I'm laughing.
Uh, we, we did not coordinate this piece, uh, at all, but as you were talking about it, one of the things we tell teams or friends in the space is adopt a three give framework. You are not allowed to ask for anything until you have given three unique elements of give. And in some ways, this industry, this vertical just needs to be taught that it's not transactions, it's not mercenary, and you are not allowed to ask for a meeting.
You are not allowed to ask for a demo. You are, you cannot ask for anything until you've given three unique value, three unique units of give. And then on the, on the buy side, do not respond if they immediately make the ask. And that's a, it's a great example of where like Mandy Crawford talked a lot, um, when I was on the inside.
She still does about partnership, not vendor. That's a great example of where like they can both align three gives, then maybe ask for a meeting. Fine. And if they say no, three more gives that will bear
[01:04:38] Rajeev Bajaj: fruit. And a hundred percent. And I mean, listen, we're not the first folks to talk about shifting from vendor to partner.
No. But how to do it, I find. Yeah. I mean everybody, everybody talks about that and yet their behaviors don't match that. And to me, this is, this is the, you know, it's showing, not telling on this front. Um, anybody can say it. It's a lot harder than to actually do what you're saying. The three gifts, the be a resource to folks.
Maybe it's not you. You know, connect them to somebody that's valuable to them. Make, make it, you know, invest in building that relationship and trust. And, you know, I see myself as someone who's not leaving the public education space. This is my career. Yeah. I'm a member of this ecosystem. I'm not just trying to sell you something.
I'm gonna be here for the rest of my career. And so, um, it's, it's good for them. It's good for the field and, you know, yes. It'll be beneficial to you at some point. Don't be, don't be transactional about it.
[01:05:34] Jamie Grant: I'm dying laughing. I'm gonna get in trouble for this one, but I couldn't tell if you were describing dating in 2025 with anybody can say they want a healthy relationship, but their behavior may not show the same.
Yeah.
[01:05:44] Rajeev Bajaj: I mean,
[01:05:44] Jamie Grant: there you go. Uh, but they're the same, right? Like healthy relationships or healthy relationships, whether it's romantic, a friendship or, or professional. So, um, man, uh, all right. I want you to give a. Quick intro to the AI convening. 'cause I think the work you're doing there is really cool. And then I think maybe just to tee it up, the partnership collaboration around the, the, the nonprofit work we're both doing, uh, to try and bring decision makers, mission-driven folks together, really to create rooms where this kind of solution stuff happens.
No sales allowed, no pitches allowed, no, no pressure allowed with a, with a zero strike policy. But to say, how do we bring together the buy side folks that you're describing, and a lot of the great work y'all do and, and we do with buy side, uh, organizations around the country to say who's really mission driven and who's serious, their actions back up that they're mission driven, and then where are some people that are serious about being partners?
So I think the AI convening, um, is a, is a great example, but kind of excited to announce what we're, what we're working on with Frontier State as well. Yeah, absolutely.
[01:06:45] Rajeev Bajaj: Uh, headlines here. We at MGT work, state, local, and education and I particularly lead our education vertical and we. Uh, continue to hear from our education clients who are superintendents, uh, big philanthropic, uh, partners in education, uh, about a need to engage and support, um, the systems that, uh, that these education leaders work in on, uh, on ai, what the, what the promise and the peril, um, that exists on this topic looks like.
And so over the, over the course of the past year, um, we have, um, starting, starting with a convening of, of systems leaders, think superintendents, uh, of systems, state education chiefs, uh, some of, some of the partners in technology and other ecosystem. Uh, players basically brought together education leaders around kind of what's going on in AI in education.
Um, and what sort of came out of that conversation was this is a group that needs a community. Um, they want to engage with each other. Um, they wanna understand what the opportunities are, both from a safety, security policy perspective, but also what are the, what are, you know, your ceiling and floor concept.
What's the ceiling on the use cases for teaching and learning for these operational benefits that might exist on ai? And so. We launched, uh, about six months ago, uh, an AI learning, uh, collective, um, a set of education leaders, superintendents, their CIOs, um, of large school districts, uh, and actually both, um, large, uh, urban, rural, um, with geographic diversity, uh, almost 20 systems across the country, um, that are engaging.
Uh, and our partner here is uc, Berkeley. We've been lucky enough to partner, um, uc. Berkeley has some of the, some of the best, um, you know, academic brains on ai. Uh, and so we've been engaging in a learning collective where we're bringing in industry experts, we're bringing in academic experts. Um, we're creating a space for these education leaders, uh, to really think about what are the implications and ultimately kind of the, so what now, what's my roadmap in, in my district, uh, around some of the guardrails I need and some of the possibilities on the teaching and learning side, the operational side.
Uh, and ultimately, you know, school district leaders live in the steady drumbeat of the school year. And so what does that mean for my kids and my community in a, in the, the upcoming school year? And so. We're bringing those leaders together in September at uc, Berkeley, uh, with public sector and uh, and, and, uh, and other experts to really engage on that topic, and they will launch their individual roadmaps on that front.
Um, and we see this as sort of cohort one, uh, of a set of, uh, of, of education leaders that are gonna lead this work. Um, and we've done this to this point on gives and gets at no cost to the leaders. Uh, we want to create this community. We want, uh, education leaders to have a safe space. We want them to be able to explore, um, both what the opportunities are and to safely talk about what the risks are here in a way.
Um, that they're not just out on the skinny branches by themselves. They have a community of peers. Um, they get access to the expertise and they can hear, hear from ex expert experts, uh, and, and can be co-designers in what these solutions look like. So that's the work we're, we're engaged in and, um, and continue to launch.
Uh, and on that front frontier state, uh, which is the nonprofit that you know, we are really thrilled and excited to partner with you, Jamie, on. Um, is that space we need to create a middle space that allows for these education leaders. Um, without the sort of, you know, specter of, of, um, you know, you must buy X or you must transact on y to have that safe space nonprofit that brings folks together on this front.
And so love for you to share more on the frontier state front. Yeah. But, but that's what this looks like. Um, and I think, you know, based on the interest we've gotten, I, you know, I think we're just scratching the surface here.
[01:11:10] Jamie Grant: I I think you're spot on. I think one of the things I, that made me so excited, um, you know, we, we, uh, we had our first event together in Dallas last year.
Y'all did a phenomenal job leading on it. But I, I, if I was to say one thing that made me really excited, you know, I, obviously the MGT relationships with me go back ways and, and good friends and trusted people. But anytime you're going into that kind of environment and there's any side of professional relat, like if there's any sort of private sector component, I'm lying.
If there's not a little piece of me that's like, all right, am I walking into a pitch for something? You know? And, and the, the work you and Rodney led in Dallas, uh, was truly authentically helping these leaders. I think everything we did that day was giving them questions to ask, not answers. And I think maybe that's the thing that if I was to sum up kind of like what we want to be at the foundation of this nonprofit work, it's it, the moment you're giving answers that are tied to business, the entire community's dead.
Yep. But the notion that you can't get the trust built between people that work in the private sector and people that work in the public sector. Around pure mission driven discovery and questions and art of the possible and actually giving real substance.
[01:12:35] Rajeev Bajaj: Yep.
[01:12:35] Jamie Grant: Um, I think there's just such a vacuum and there's some folks doing some great work.
Uh, the CIO roundtable was something I, I got a lot of benefit from when I was on the inside pretty heavily state, CIO and so a little more policy and, uh, like, like state technology policy. Um, but like who's bringing together some of the agency heads and chief of staffs and superintendents and CIOs and CISOs around holistically, here's how you should be thinking of these things.
Here's the questions you should be asking. Here's some resources and artifacts to actually do it. Um, and so I'm just super excited to, to be working with y'all on that.
[01:13:12] Rajeev Bajaj: Well, no, um, you know, right back at you on, on that front and, and I think, you know, you're, you're spot on. Uh, you know, we are trying to be user driven here, which is Yeah.
Yes. That's a great way. We did the thing in Dallas. And we heard from folks, gosh, we'd love more time to connect. We'd love more opportunity to do that. And so we're really trying to be learners as we build the community on this front, to take what we're hearing from our clients and partners and and colleagues on this front to kind of create a, create this space.
And I think we're gonna continue to learn, um, and, and, you know, discover, um, what, what that community needs. Um, and our hope is to kind of grow, you know, build a, build a bigger tent. Because I think at the end of the day. We need a bigger tent of folks talking about this stuff and figuring out what's possible on this front.
And that builds the proof points. That's gonna show what's possible on some of the headier things we're talking about today. Um, I think, you know, it's, it's very much possible, but it takes space and time, um, and investment in a way that doesn't feel transactional. And so really hoping that we can continue to build that and couldn't be more excited to, to build it with you.
So
[01:14:21] Jamie Grant: likewise, brother. I think, um, we'll make sure we put in the show notes how folks that are interested in the kind of cohort two and getting in line. 'cause I think with some of the demand, uh, I wanna make sure that we give folks a, an opportunity to join there. So, alright, we're gonna land the plane here, Rajeev, with what we call the Roundup.
It's kind of a fun little, uh, it's easy. Uh, our folks know you haven't seen these, uh, but we like to just kind of rapid fire to give people, you know, we, we, if somebody doesn't realize the experience and intellect of Rajeev at this point, that's. It says more about them, uh, after what you just covered.
'cause I think, uh, gosh, we could do this for hours, uh, and, and, and maybe round two and round three one day. But I want 'em to know Rajeev the person. So if you had one piece of advice that shaped your career, if there's one thing that you go, man, this is the one piece of advice that really shaped me. Uh, where'd it come from?
What is it? And, and where'd it come from?
[01:15:16] Rajeev Bajaj: Uh, um, be a good listener and do hard things. Um, and, uh, it, it's, uh, it, it's come from, you know, my, my parents. I'm a, you know, kid, Kida, immigrants, uh, you know, folks, you know, folks that came here, uh, for educational opportunity. Uh, and that have benefited a lot from, from being good listeners and, and doing hard things and, and.
Building and growing things. And so, uh, I've had lots of wonderful mentors and, and worked for great leaders both in the public and private sector who basically have stamped that point. You know, be, be a good listener, be curious, and, and do, do the hard things. Do hard things. I love that. And that, you know, that's, that's started after not doing great in organic chemistry and trying to figure out what, you know, what next.
And you know, all, all of the things, you know, from, from, from my journey. So that's probably the summary there.
[01:16:15] Jamie Grant: All right. If you had, one thing you do, and I know you don't get to do this a lot, but if you got to unplug, if you're really trying to get your brain off, if there's certain activities or settings that like you, you just actually get to shut down, be a husband, be a dad, be in the moment, uh, be a friend.
What is like rajeev's unplug look like?
[01:16:35] Rajeev Bajaj: Oh, um, couple things. I mean, like millions of Americans, I've, uh, I got the pickleball bug and, uh. My, my only unique kind of deep cut on this is I play with, uh, guys and gals that are 20 years younger than me, and so I run around like a chicken with my head cut off.
So, you know, it's, uh, it's not just, you know, standing there to pass time before the cocktail hour. Um, so it's a good workout. Uh, but on the dad front, I'm just coming off, uh, coaching my older one in flag football, youth flag football in town. And I gotta say it, it was, you know, real joy to get, to get, uh, my son and his, you know, eight, eight, 14-year-old buddies to, you know.
To, to mess around on the football field. And they all wanted the wristband. And then basically the offense was somebody go get open. Uh, was was real really fun, you know? And, uh, especially, especially as your kids get older, you know, wa wanting them to come hang out with you or them wanting to hang out with you is, uh, it was a real joy.
So that was, that was, uh, that was good stuff. That's
[01:17:44] Jamie Grant: awesome.
[01:17:44] Rajeev Bajaj: Um, and, uh, yeah, we had, we had fun with that.
[01:17:46] Jamie Grant: That's awesome. All right. Here's one that always gets conversation going. Uh, you stay as a guest at my house, a friend's house, whatever it is. And asking the host is not an option. You spend the night, you wake up, it's time to leave.
Do you strip the sheets and take 'em to the laundry room or do you remake the bed? Oof.
[01:18:06] Rajeev Bajaj: Um, strip the bed. Strip the bed laundry room. That's. I love it. That's their only right answer. That's, uh, I've been trained Carolyn, my, my wife has trained me well on, uh, on yeah,
[01:18:21] Jamie Grant: remind me where she grew up. Uh, Connecticut, west Hartford, Connecticut.
So what, what we find there's like, uh, there's an interesting kind of, uh, this question goes different demographics, which is really interesting. Uh, but it started, I stayed at a buddy's house in Miami. It was speaker of the house and good friend and nobody there. And we were raised in the south. Like you stripped the sheets.
Yeah. Uh. And I took the sheets to the laundry room and his wife came home, was like, what did that guy do in the bed? What kind of weird guy doesn't make the sheets? And I was like, what kind of host doesn't strip the sheets? Right? Yeah. Uh, but it gets conversation going. Um, no.
[01:18:56] Rajeev Bajaj: All right. Well, absolutely. Um, yeah, and, uh, my mother-in-law has a, a great saying that short visits make long friends.
So sometimes I'm, I'm barely getting outta the bed in this, uh, sheet.
[01:19:08] Jamie Grant: I never understood why I would remake the bed and make the host strip it like that. Just, I mean, exactly. It just seems like more work. Correct. It's crazy. Uh, you have one book or one band that you think the world doesn't know about, that you just really think the world should know about.
[01:19:25] Rajeev Bajaj: Um, it's a good one. I just got this book, it's actually sitting on my desk, uh, that a, a very good friend of mine gave, which is, uh, Maha Ma Gandhi's autobiography, his own story, which is. I mean, I'm, I'm just into it and it's phenomenal. Interesting. So I don't know how many people
[01:19:42] Jamie Grant: Oh,
[01:19:42] Rajeev Bajaj: that qualifies. I didn't know there was
[01:19:44] Jamie Grant: an autobiography.
[01:19:45] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah, it's uh, it's a beautiful autobiography or biography. Oh,
[01:19:51] Jamie Grant: it's, uh,
[01:19:52] Rajeev Bajaj: biography
[01:19:52] Jamie Grant: bi. Either way. Yeah, either way. That's fascinating. All right. This one's a fun pick them. You can either choose the wildest thing you've done to close something. Could be getting the date, getting the business. Like what is the thing where you were just like in the pickle of like, I don't know how to get to Yes.
Here, or your hottest, most controversial take that you don't think should be hot or controversial law.
[01:20:18] Rajeev Bajaj: I have, I have, um, gotten on a, I mean, to close business. I have literally gotten on a red eye, uh, after being on a call and whatever. I don't know. Four 30 or five o'clock West Coast time, gotten on a red eye to be there the next morning.
Um, and this included some international travel to land the plane to launch the project to act into making it happen and to just move forward. And I think I did that, you know, before any paper was signed or whatever it was, it was just had to do it and, you know, literally launched the kickoff meeting, you know, the next morning.
[01:20:58] Jamie Grant: I love that. 'cause people see the CEO title or they see the role, the status, the pay, and they want that, but they don't want what it takes to get there and they don't want the four 30 red eye.
[01:21:08] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah, it was, it was. I love that. Yeah. Do you
[01:21:11] Jamie Grant: have a hot take you wanna throw at us?
[01:21:13] Rajeev Bajaj: Oh, I'm trying to, I mean, um, uh, I, you know, I, I, I grew up in California and spent a bunch of time on the East Coast and then have come back to California.
Um, and, uh, you know, we don't, we in California don't really. Have great pizza. Um, but I, I think I am now, I don't know if this is because I'm, I've now adopted my, my home state again, but like the pineapple on pizza thing is, is fantastic. I
[01:21:48] Jamie Grant: knew I liked you.
[01:21:51] Rajeev Bajaj: I
[01:21:51] Jamie Grant: promise you I don't. So, Jay, Jay and Paige and I were, we did a company retreat a month or so ago.
Yeah. And we we're sitting at a pizza shop, village of West Greenville. And somehow this comes up and we can't understand why pineapple on pizza is a debate. Like you don't have to like it, but nobody debates. Like, are you exiled if you put mushroom on pizza? Yeah. But somehow if you put pineapple on pizza, you're exiled.
I
[01:22:14] Rajeev Bajaj: mean, I don't, I don't get it. And then you add help. He knows to that mix. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we've got some, you know, we got some good fla. I mean, it's Yes, pretty fantastic actually. I mean,
[01:22:22] Jamie Grant: I'm actually in the camp that I work pineapple into just about every pizza.
[01:22:27] Rajeev Bajaj: Yeah.
[01:22:28] Jamie Grant: But like, I don't judge somebody who wants like, ham on their pizza or veg somehow.
Pineapple is the one topping that is nuclear. I, I don't understand. It's a little bit like more cowbell,
[01:22:38] Rajeev Bajaj: you know?
[01:22:39] Jamie Grant: It's, it's
[01:22:39] Rajeev Bajaj: just like
[01:22:40] Jamie Grant: more cowbell. It's well done. All right. We're gonna land here. Actually. I wanna be sensitive on time. Yeah. Can I, if you had a walkup song, like if, if you have a walkup song.
'cause I do wanna make sure I get to the last one. 'cause it, the, the last ones are really fun. One, if you had a walk up song, MGT plays it when you walk into the office, you get to pick it. Um,
[01:22:59] Rajeev Bajaj: I don't know. I've been, I've been, I feel like this would, this would change week over week for me, but I'm in a little bit of the.
Um, Zeppelin when the levy breaks. Okay. Moment. Okay. Moment right now. Just in sort of how I'm feeling. So that would be, that probably would be, you know, just that the intro of that song is pretty phenomenal, so
[01:23:19] Jamie Grant: Love it. All right. Here's our like, signature. Every guest gets to leave a question for the next guest, and they don't know who they are.
The guest that's following you is very likely gonna be a big part of the AI convening. Uh, I, I, we're coordinating scheduling. I think that's next. She's a rockstar. So I'm excited that you get to leave a question for somebody that a, in a lot of ways she's, she's brilliant, she's awesome. But the question that was left for you first, yeah.
You get to brief the president of the United States and you get the opportunity, and this is any president, anytime. This is not a political thing. It was explicitly left by John Rogers that, uh, let's drown out all the capital P, lowercase p. This is, you get to brief the president, whoever you think that president is kind of today.
But, but like with the powers of the presidency, you get to either ask one question or make one comment on the state of affairs in America right now. What do you say? What do you ask and why? What do I ask or what do I say? You could, I'll give you both if you want. Um, um, it's agnostic of like what party's in play and it, right.
Like, yeah.
[01:24:37] Rajeev Bajaj: Um, I, I don't know. I, I've been thinking a lot about this right now, and this will, this will tip my hand on where I, where I see the world. But, um, uh, it would be a little bit, let's, let's not lose our humanity and who we are. Yeah. Like, you know, let's, um, you know, uh. The, the, the why we need to be, why we need to be cruel and lose losing our little, a little bit of who we are, um, is not American.
And, um, it, it, uh, it, it pains me as, as someone who's a kid, immigrants and as, as, uh, has benefited so much from this unique experiment. Like, let's, let's dial down the cruelty and uh, and uh, the lack of humanity.
[01:25:29] Jamie Grant: I think you just referenced beautifully what you were talking about in education, even with choice earlier, that we can do the right thing and maintain dignity.
Like we can be a rule of law and we can Amen, brother, embrace the right outcomes. Yes. But we can also see the dignity. Um, exactly, and, and, and kind of bifurcate between maybe some, some really bad dudes. Like I don't want the cartel here also, not everybody's the cartel, and so we can keep rule of law. We can do the right thing and maintain dignity.
And I think we'll find a lot more consensus if we both believe in, do the right thing as much as we believe in dignity of every life.
[01:26:08] Rajeev Bajaj: Amen. And, and human dignity. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, a lot of our, a lot of the things we create are, are manmade on this front. There is basic human dignity. Yeah.
[01:26:18] Jamie Grant: Um,
[01:26:18] Rajeev Bajaj: regardless of what you believe in, in life.
So Bos
[01:26:21] Jamie Grant: Baat, if, uh, my favorite read of all time, my book, that everybody should know Baat the Law. Yeah. But he boils down, he's a French philosopher at the time of the revolution, uh, the French Revolution. And he basically boils down and he says, uh, man or humanity is three things. It's their personhood, it's their property, and it's their freedom.
And too many legislators of all sides, uh, engage in what is called legalized plunder, and they fail to see the person, the property, and the freedoms of that human life. Uh, and, and I think it's one of the best essays ever written. So you get to leave a question.
[01:26:56] Rajeev Bajaj: Anything. Wow. Um,
I, I think my question would be, um, how, how do, how do you think about leading in this moment? Like, how, how do you, you know, how do you think about leadership, uh, and a responsibility to others in this moment? Um, I'm just, I'm, I'm, I feel like it's been on my mind about how, and, and broadly defined. How do, how do you lead, how do you show up?
How do you, how do you lead in this moment? Like, um, I love it. And take, take it in. You know what, whatever, whatever grain size and whatever altitude, I just, I feel like it's, um, I'm thinking about it a lot because, you know, we're we all, we all live in organizations. We all live in communities, we all, you know, we have our families.
Um, how, how to, how to lead, uh, in this moment is, uh, is very much in my mind.
[01:27:54] Jamie Grant: I'm not at all shocked by that because having gotten to know you, you take that mantle and that responsibility on behalf of your team that recognizes there's a difference between leadership and management or hierarchy and collaboration.
Uh, so I, I, uh, I wasn't sure where you would go with your question, but having heard your question or the answer to that, uh, um, not at all surprised as I've gotten to know you and, and, and become friends with you. So, Rajeev, I know we're, we're, uh, we're, we're up against time and we want to get you to, uh, your obligations.
Um, man, I can't thank you enough. I had a, a genuinely good time. I got smarter today. I got humbled a little bit today. I think there's a lot in here for folks on all sides of the ecosystem. We'll make sure in the show notes that people know how to get in touch with you and or the AI convening and, and, and give folks some of that stuff.
But man, just thank you, uh, 'cause you didn't have to do this and, uh, you, you made me better. I have a feeling you're gonna make a lot of people better that got to listen to you today.
[01:28:57] Rajeev Bajaj: Oh, thank you. This was a real, real treat, and, uh, appreciate all you're doing and look forward to making stuff happen. Let's go change the world.
[01:29:04] Jamie Grant: Love it. All right, brother. Be
[01:29:06] Rajeev Bajaj: good. Good to see you. Stay well. Bye.